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Post by Jessica Rabbit on Nov 1, 2003 23:12:44 GMT -5
Although Nightmare Before Christmas and Who Framed Roger Rabbit? are not exactly pure Disney they do have lots of Anti-heros in them! Forgive me if I should refrain from talking about non-pure Disney films but I think Disney should be HONORED to have their name attatched to these films.
Most of the entire Halloween Town are anti-heros. Jack and his unwanted followers are not exactly good or bad and not exactly role models either. Jack is actually very self absorbed and oblivious of others. The only Halloween character that may be actually leaning towards heroic is Sally.
As for Who Framed Roger Rabbit? There are specific villians there but Jessica Rabbit and Baby Herman are not exactly on the road to heroism. Their heart is in the right place but their actions to get there are a bit misguided. Jessica Rabbit cheats on her husband and flirts with a detective. But as she explicity put it, she's not bad, she's just drawn that way. Baby Herman thinks that he can throw money at the problem to help his pal. These are not exactly role models.
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Post by Gracie on Nov 2, 2003 5:09:05 GMT -5
As far as NBC I agree---99% of the town is a bunch of anti-heroes, because they don't feel what they're doing is wrong. People count Oogie Boogie as a villain, but I really doubt that. It's his JOB to scare people, much like Sulley in Monsters, Inc. I just don't agree with the villain status. Same thing with WFRR? too, actually. People just don't realize it. Oh yeah, and feel free to talk about the non-pure Disney films and their characters. That's what the board is for---a bunch of different ideas of any and all aspects of Disney villainy and other things.  |
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Ansuz
Fresh Meat
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Post by Ansuz on Dec 4, 2003 19:25:02 GMT -5
Anti-Hero: failure; incompetent; unlucky; tactless; clumsy; stupid; buffoonish -- NEVER gets anything right, not even in the end
Hero: the principle male character in a work of literature; often flawed (most commonly with a feeling that they can do no wrong, equal "the gods" so to speak) -- a hero can't really be a hero if he (or she) doesn't overcome something in their actions as heroes
Nobody said a hero has to be perfect. All of the best heroes in fiction have flaws and make mistakes (great literature tells us that -- Shakespeare, Ancient Greek playwrites, and more).
Jack is a hero. Yes, he's flawed, self absorbed, not acting in everyone's best interest, even risking the life of jolly Mr. Claus. But that doesn't mean he's not a hero. He performs some important functions as a hero: destroying Mr. Oogie Boogie, who's so bad even everyone in Halloween town is intimidated (Don't tell me he's not a villain, 'cause he is!); saving Sally; saving Christmas. And he recognizes his mistakes, too; he's certainly not as self-absorbed in the end, and he realizes he loves Sally.
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Post by Gracie on Dec 18, 2003 11:51:56 GMT -5
WRONG---you just described a minion! LOL Well, ok, most minions.
Anti-hero: A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.
Example: Captain Jack Sparrow has courage when it suits his best interests, but by no means is he the hero of the story. He's a pirate, and a main character! Elizabeth and Will said it best, "Whose side is Jack on?" "At the moment?" Anti-hero.
Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.
Jack acted selfishly, by trying to change his hum-drum Halloweentown because he thought they could make Christmas too. You could say in a way this makes him a villain--personally I'd just put him under anti-hero because he didn't mean to bring harm to people, he meant to bring joy his own way. The HERO in the story is "Sandy Claws" for re-bringing the joy of Christmas back to the world after Jack screwed up.
I'll give you Oogie Boogie as a villain only if you take the movie itself and don't analyze Halloween town, because as I said before---the whole town is ridden with "villains" if you sit down and analyze them one by one. It's full of vampires, spooks, things that go bump in the night, and of course Oogie Boogie. They are supposed to be scary. The thing under the bed? Teeth razor sharp and eyes glowing red? Don't tell me they're just for decoration!
A hero doesn't have to be perfect, a hero just has to be a hero.
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Ansuz
Fresh Meat
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Post by Ansuz on Dec 18, 2003 18:51:57 GMT -5
I'm quoting a very respectable text as far as the definition of "Anti-Hero" is concerned -- the perfect example being Gaston from Beauty & the Beast. In many ways, he seems a villain, yet he's out to kill the beast -- what he deems a "worthy" heroic act; he is seen by every one as a hero, though he lacks the major ideals of a hero; and he doesn't get anything right in the end. He isn't a villain at all, just a bumbling idiot . . . I mean anti-hero. (The only real villain here is the Beast; but his villainous acts affect only himself and he is capable of changing.)
Further, I don't deny that anti-heroes lack "traditional" qualities of heroes, but they also satisfy those essential other qualities noted above.
As far as my analysis of Halloween town, you're taking the town at face value and ignoring the fact that the plot follows the traditional patterns of heroic stories: a hero on a mission (to understand Christmas), but he doesn't even realize it (he thinks its to change Halloween); a hero missing what's right in front of him (including the girl of his dreams); and finally battling the bad guy.
Sure, the purposes of Halloween town's memebers are to scare, but that doesn't change the fact that Jack is a hero -- just because his purpose is to be scary, it doesn't mean he can't do something noble, something heroic. You're limiting the notion of "hero." Most great heroes are flawed. Sure, ultimately his attempts were selfish, but he certainly thought them "noble in purpose" when he began.
And, as for Halloween town being full of monsters and "villains," the same can be said of Monster's Inc., where monsters are trained to be scary, to scare children for a very selfish reason -- power and survival. Yet, two monstrous heroes appear in this "villainous" town.
I guess what I'm saying is, just because on the surface they appear to be villains, it doesn't change the fact that the characters satisfy the concept of hero -- they're just unusual heroes. And most have that essential quality - they are flawed (whether they be selfish, cowards, or arrogant).
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diartest
Bumbling Sidekick
I am Lady Tremaine according to VillainLair's Villain personality test!
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Post by diartest on Dec 19, 2003 12:10:34 GMT -5
I'm quoting a very respectable text as far as the definition of "Anti-Hero" is concerned -- the perfect example being Gaston from Beauty & the Beast. In many ways, he seems a villain, yet he's out to kill the beast -- what he deems a "worthy" heroic act; he is seen by every one as a hero, though he lacks the major ideals of a hero; and he doesn't get anything right in the end. He isn't a villain at all, just a bumbling idiot . . . I mean anti-hero. (The only real villain here is the Beast; but his villainous acts affect only himself and he is capable of changing.) Gaston? hero/antihero?? Gaston didn't have any "heroic" traits if you ask me. He was self-absorbed, egotistical, didn't care what Belle thought at all and couldn't see past the looks of the Beast and see him . He plotted and schemed to marry Belle by putting her father in an institution, and then going after the beast without one thought other than what he thought to be the "prize". Yes maybe he is a hero in his own eyes, but does that really make him a hero? no. So in the end it seems like he has way more villain traits than hero, to top that he doesn't accomplish anything heroic. He might try to in his own perspective but certainly not mine. The beast doesn't really seem like a villain so much as he started out bitter, and without hope and courage... He built a wall around himself using anger to keep others out. If Beauty and the Beast had been about when the Beast was a prince and the witch coming to visit maybe it would be different. As I'm thinking about it the prelude to Beauty and the Beast makes me think that the Beast must have been quite similar to Gaston, but by the time we meet the Beast he doesn't seem to be the self-centered, shallow prince he was described as during the Prelude. So to me the Beast seems a bit more Anti-hero than villain...... I could be wrong on that though. |
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Post by hollyfromhell on Dec 20, 2003 12:21:30 GMT -5
I think diartest raised a pretty interesting issue. The fact that Gaston saw himself as a hero (the way he acted I don't think that's very correct) does not make him a hero. To be a hero, one must also think of others before one thinks of themself. Gaston failed to show this trait. Oddly enough, I can think of one other Disney villain that showed the trait of thinking he was a hero.
I've been thinking about it, and have come to the conclusion that Frollo is very much like Gaston when you look at the fact that he saw the gypsy society as a "beast" that must be conquered. Very much like Gaston's literal example, really. He saw the people of Paris and their souls as something that must be saved from the "corruption" the gypsies would bring to them. I'll bet he saw himself as the greatest hero in the city. But that certainly did NOT make him a hero, or an anti-hero, because trying to burn down a city goes beyond "just screwing up".
But I would have to counter Gracie's claim that Oogie Boogie was just doing his job. Sure, Oogie Boogie was doing his job, (so was Frollo, really) but have you ever heard of excessive force? He was trying to kill both Santa Claus and Sally, not just scare them!
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Post by Gracie on Jan 29, 2004 11:34:48 GMT -5
Thank you, holly, the Gaston point was something similar to what I was going to say, but never came back to do so in time. I won't harp on that though, as you proved the point with the Frollo suggestion.
As to Oogie Boogie: I suppose I'm just stuck on the fact that he was doing his job. *shrugs* If I watch the movie again soon, I'll focus on seeing if I can pinpoint where he'd be doing more than "using excessive force" to make him a villain. Even policemen sometimes use excessive force, that doesn't make them villains. (Sure, bad example, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.)
I shall return with more input! ;D
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Ansuz
Fresh Meat
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Post by Ansuz on Jul 14, 2004 16:55:50 GMT -5
First, I never said I think Gaston is a hero -- I was refering to the three blond chicks who seem to think he's great, not to mention all the town's people who follow him to the castle to "kill the beast, kill the beast, kill the beast". If they didn't think he's a hero, I don't know why they followed him, because all of those town's people sure as hell are not minions!
And, when you think about it, it's the people who decide who their heroes are -- not the audience. The town's people believed Gaston was a hero, they looked up to him as one, and they actually respected him. He was a hero in their eyes (Belle as an outsider was both immune and able to see him for what he really was -- a buffoon!!!).
However, his self-image harkens back to the anti-hero: he lacks "traditional heroic qualities" (because he's far more selfish than the normal hero, without moral standards), as well as buffoonish (just picture the musical number in the inn "Gaston"), tactless, etc.
Further, when I describe him as an "anti-hero", I am speaking from the point of view of the villagers, and his own point of view as well. He certainly seems to think he's a hero, not recognizing his real quailities.
Perhaps if I looked from the audience's point of view I might agree, yes, he's a villain, albeit an incomplete one because he (unlike other villains) doesn't recognize his villainous nature. However, my analysis originates from the point of view of the town's people, and they certainly don't see a villain, not even in the end when Gaston attacks the beast. No villagers remain to witness his actions.
Let me stress once more: I DO NOT THINK HE IS A HERO!!!!! Certainly, he is probably something of a villain from the point of view of the audience, but my view of him is not from that point of view, but rather from the point of view of the villagers.
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oogie
Fresh Meat
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Post by oogie on Jun 28, 2005 14:01:40 GMT -5
Boogie's job is to scare, but he captures santa, tries to kill Jack...ext... He takes it over the top, he's rude, gambles with peoples lives, and is truley dastardly. Other denizens of Holloween Town don't kill. Only frighten! Oogie murders and captures! He is in no way trying to help with a good cause! He cares for himself, and only himself.  Please he must be accepted as a villain. |
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